The main thing that came up from the Lab For Men is the men, is that when men are amongst other men, they cannot feel.

The level of numbness that men feel when they are amongst other men is incredibly high. It is so high that even though they give each other feedback and coaching, they cannot take it. They cannot receive it or use it because they are so numb.

They try, but it fails completely. It does not work. And this is, for me, extremely shocking to see the level of numbness that is possible.

I thought the men would be able to feel at the same vulnerability level as Tristan, for example. But in the Lab For Men, even Tristan was 80% numb. Tristan was so numb that he started to make very weird facial movents. It was similar to the beginning when he was unconsciously blinking his eyes so much, and stuttering. After his initiations and healing processes he did not blink or stutter anymore, but in the Lab For Men, he stuttered with his face. He manifested facial tics.

And so at the beginning of the Lab For Men we entered this incredible numbness world, even when we started describing what it is to be a man in Patriarchy. Together we make an entire flip chart filled with a description of patriarchal men. While researching together in this discovery space, the men could not feel at all.

They were sitting there together being completely resigned to being the Patriarchal man just as we described, no way out of it. In comparison, at the Women Of Earth Lab, I remember the women feeling and shouting out huge feelings while they spoke about what it is to be a woman in the Patriarchy. Instead of consciously feeling, the men were making jokes. "Ha, ha, ha, yeah! Then we call each other 'The Boys'. We go out to be with 'The Boys'."

As the Spaceholder for the Lab For Men, I did not want to push the men in any particular direction. I wanted them to discover by themselves where they are and what is actually going on. While we were making the Map of the Patriarchal Man, I was completely dry. All I said is, "Okay, what next? What next? What next?" until I could not write anymore.

The whole flip-chart paper is covered with this description of the men in Patriarchy, and the men did not feel anything. The men were so numb that eventually I ended the process because I could see it is not going anywhere. This is when I simply kicked Tristan out of the space.

I asked the other men, "How come all you men are not telling Tristan to leave this space? He is a leader of men's work. He is a spaceholder for men leaving the Patriarchy. But you are allowing him to be so numb? You don't challenge him. How is that possible?"

And then this thing started to happen. Elliot started to feel more. He stood up and said, "Tristan, leave the space."

And it was super. What was the purpose for Tristan leaving? Tristan is one of the men there with the most matrix. He has the most influence, and also the most experience creating culture for Archan men. But he was the most numb man in this process. In my experience, his frozen numbness example was holding back the whole process for the other men. And what happened was incredible, because Elliot asked him to leave.

Then five other men left with him. So we didn't even have to kick them out. They left for the rest of this process.

Why did the other five men leave? They left because they could not feel anything either.

Five men remained with me for the rest of the evening session. We started with twelve of us. This was the evening session of the second day.

Suddenly the remaining men started to speak. I just sat there. Basically. I did not do anything. I just watched and listened. I let them go on and on until they hit the point of not knowing what to do. And then they started to put the poop on the table, their weapons on the table. That is when we discovered this amazing thing, that there is an unspoken deal between men. "We don't interfere in each other's life."

The Patriarchal man leaves the other men to do whatever they need to do. He will not interfere, no matter how much the behavior harms him or others. This is an unspoken agreement between men. When the first man verbalized this, it shook the space.

I think the Pact for entering Patriarchy is even bigger. We came to it eventually in our research together. The Pact is, "I will cut myself away from my feelings and I will never interfere with another man's life."

And when men were alone with each other, they did not know what to do. They started to share their questions. "What the heck do we do with each other? How to create intimacy with each other? We are incompetent in this. We don't know how to touch each other or make a difference for each other."

Soon they revealed that they don't know how to touch each other because if they touch each other, they are homosexual. They are gay. And what if they get an erection? I had this really this question, what if we touch each other and we feel an erection? We cannot allow this to happen.

We found this Pact about territory. "As a Patriarchal man, we don't interfere in each other's life. I keep my territory, you keep yours. I keep my woman, you keep yours. I keep my power, you keep yours."

It turns out to be the same diplomatic, unspoken agreements that nations have with each other! Right? The international agreements are the same as the Patriarchal Men's Secret Pact. There is even a saying in English, something like,"We don't piss in each other's blah, blah, blah, blah." I cannot remember the exact words.

It's about the power that I get by having the unspoken guarantee that you will not give me any feedback. You will leave me alone. But we can still have war. War is okay. We have to have war. We can't imagine how to be together if war is not allowed.

The fear behind this agreement is, "If you interfere in my life, then you are telling me that you know better than I know. And as a man, I am supposed to know. I am supposed to know everything. So if I let you tell me something else, then you are exposing my incompetence." This is the Patriarchal man's hell. Being exposed as an incompetent man by the other men is the worst possible thing for these men.

That why the men won't feel. Patriarchal men have no examples of authentic initiated adult men, Archan men. Patriarchal men have been surrounded all their lives by women. Dad is gone to work with the other boys. Patriarchal men learn to define themselves as 'not women'. Whatever a woman is, I am something else. This gives Patriarchal men the belief that, "If I feel something, then I am a woman. Men are different from women. Women feel. Therefore, men don't feel. If I feel, then I prove that I am incompetent at being a man. I must not be incompetent."

In reality, the men are incompetent at feeling because they are not allowed to feel by the Patriarchy. Men have not practiced Inner Navigating their own feelings, and have not practiced communicating their feelings and emotions to others. This is one of the biggest things that we found: In that moment, when the man finds himself incompetent to feel, and at the same time must not appear to be incompetent, he outsources the task of feeling to women.

In the Patriarchy, it is arranged that women feel for the men.

Patriarchal men are not able to find or create heart food for themselves, only soul food. When men outsource the capacity to feel their own heart to the women, if a man wants heart food he must constantly suck on the women's heart aliveness.

This is how Patriarchal men feel. Sucking on a woman's heart is how a Patriarchal man feeds his own heart.

When a Patriarchal man feeds on the woman's heart, he also makes the women into the man.

The Patriarchal man connects energetically to the breast of a woman instead of finding his own inner emotional resources. This leads to one of the main questions that women ask the men. Where are you, man? Where the heck is your emotional aliveness?

Then when the women take back their Center, their Voice, their Authenticity, their Rage, for example at Women Of Earth trainings, they say, "Stop emotionally feeding on me! You will never feed on me again! Stop trying to suck my aliveness! Get your own aliveness!"

Women are so angry about this. When they came home from the Women Of Earth, and they stop men from parasitically feeding from their energetic breasts, the men are left starving, right? There is nothing more for them. The incapacity of the men and women from creating heart food with each other means they don't know where to begin. There is no emotional creation power in the men. This is when heart-food transactions begin.

When I work with couples, many women discover that they are unconsciously making a trade with the men. It goes something like this. "I will feed your heart, if you give me the money, security, and protection I want." The security women want comes in many different forms. "You are a father for my children. You pay the bills. You take care of the maintenance on the house." In many cases the woman exchanges her own Authority for a promise of security from the men. And men want to pay that, because it's easy for them. Since the Patriarchal man does not know how to feel, it is far easier for him to pay money and fix the car than it is to feel and communicate his feelings so as to nurture his own heart and the woman's heart.

The remaining men continues in this process until about one in the morning. Once they started, they began to really reveal what is going on. There was a very impressive moment when one of the men started to put on the table his hidden strategy for dominance and control. He said, "I will steal your woman. In every single chance I have, I will steal your woman by doing this and this and that and that and that." At this point, another man there errupted in furious anger at this woman-stealing man. Then he became bigger than the woman-stealing man and demanded, "What the fuck! Do you think it is possible for a man to own a woman? What kind of man regards a woman as an object to possess?" He was shouting now, and using his anger to implant the new information. He declared, "I will not look away! I will not look away any longer! I will see you and I will tell the world. This is unacceptable." His anger brought in this new awareness about how men are accustomed to looking away with each other. But if they start to feel what is really going on for them, as this man was, if they feel, it will be not possible for them to look away anymore. He revealed how Men's Secret Pact and the numbness are tied together. They are combined. This man took a stand to impact the other man's life using the power of his own feelings. He was departing from the Pact. He was taking a step out of the Patriarchy. The distinction started to click. From then on the context of the Lab For Men shifted.

At this point it becomes apparent that some of the men in the Lab For Men began to exhibit self-pity about being a man born and raised in the Patriarchy. Their were feeling, "It is too big for me. I can only surrender. I have to give up trying to change anything in the Patriarchy. It is just too big." One of the things that Gremlin feeds on the most is victimhood, when the man thinks to himself, "It is impossible to change anything. It's just too huge. It's too complicated. I could never make any difference. We don't know where to start. It's so advanced."

Oh... I'm just so angry right now...

There is such a resignation in the men that many of them believe to be based on their true perceptions.

The thing I wanted to be sure of is that the men did not use my anger about their attitude and their resignation as the power to make the next step. This is what Patriarchal men do. They use the emotional power of the women. When the women feel something about the men and try to give them clarity about their next step, the men try to steal the power go with it. But since it is not the man's power, his actions are not authentic and it does not work. His efforts cannot succeed because he is not flying using his own emotional power.

So, it was not an easy navigation for me with these men in the Lab For Men. I did not already know how to navigate this Lab. I tried many different things. The main thing that I got is that the men wanted me to tell them what is their next step, their next realization. They wanted me to feel things that they could not feel.

In the Lab For Men, if a man started to feel something, the other men would cheer him on like in sports, because they could not feel it themselves. They would shout, "Yeah! Go, go, go, go!" thinking that if one man could feel something they would all gain the benefit. They were treating the men who could feel in the same way they would treat women who could feel, as if it would work that someone else would feel instead of them.

All the other men would try to add firewood ontop of the little flame of the one man feeling something, because at least something was coming. And then what? And then they could still not feel. They wanted this one man to feel for all of them. So, I made an experiment on that. I said, "Look, I want to do this experiment that you feel the tension that this man is feeling instead of releasing the tension by telling him to go more." This helped a lot because the space was not so squashed down. What tension did they feel? The tension of their own inability to feel?

We took a close look at the Learning Spiral. We found that men use their numbness to pretend that the Learning Spiral quadrant of Conscious Incompetence is not happening. By staying numb, they can pretend they don't know they are Incompetent. They can pretend they have not reached this next quadrant.

After noticing this, I asked what is going on, and they said, "This is where my Gremlin takes over and makes a back loop so I can fool myself. Then I don't know that I got feedback about my own incompetence. This is also how I don't see that I could give another man feedback about his own incompetence. I can tell him, 'Oh... It is not too bad...' "

This is how the men do not interfere in each other's lives. The Gremlin loops the Learning Spiral forwards, skips over some quadrants, and goes back to 'Ignorance is bliss...' "See, I don't know the consequences of what I am doing right now, so I have no reason to do anything different from this."

A Patriarchal man does not tell another man what to do. This is a rule, an unspoken rule between Patriarchal men. It is a deal, an alliance.

If a man breaks the Patriarchyl Alliance and gives another man feedback, he is pushed out of the Patriarchal Protection Field. The news goes around quickly and the rest of the men reject him. If you are a man who is outside of the Patriarchy and do not agree to abide by the Pact of the Patriarchal Alliance, the Patriarchal men sense that you are 'dangerous' to them. They are automatically afraid of you and try to discount you, attack you, publicly distrust you, 'black ball' you from their list of friends, and banish you from their clan.

Our research from this night ignited a spark the next day. It took two days of suffering to get here. It was terrible.

I came to my bedroom and it I felt terrible. These realizations gave me such big frightening shocks. So, what I did is, I declared my bedroom as a Woman Of Earth portal. Every single time I came to my bedroom, I would go to the Woman Of Earth, back to you. I was connecting to all the women, and I received so many messages of women telling me, "I am with you. I went to the beach and I am with you. I am walking towards you. I am holding space for you." It was such an incredible collaboration of the women. Every single day they were sending me support, reminding me, "Here we are, here we are! I am at your back. Just lean on me. You can do this!" They were an incredible resource for me to continue and be with the men with this level of numbness that they had.

By now I had such a completely new 'X' on the map about where men are. I did not see it before because of the diluting that happens when women are present, when the women do the emotional work for the men in the training space. Now I could see how men lean on women to do the feelings and to communicate, and how the men do not know now to feel. They don't know.

It is not just that they don't know. It's like there is no information in them. There is no information because the feelings are not activated when they are alone or with other men.

Where to go? What to try out? It was incredible. I had these questions. How to close all this for the men? What are the next steps?

I did not have a map. It was so incredibly powerful to have had a Women's of Earth Lab just before this Lab For Men, because the organizers for the Women of Earth Lab actually went to the venue to check it over. The cleaned the venue before it even started.

They went before us, so when we arrived, everything was set up so carefully with so much love to the details. They even asked two weeks before that the women take care of their own health so they don't come sick to the Lab. For example, don't go to parties to get exhausted or contaminated so everyone catches a bug and gets sick. The women want to take care of each other like that. There is no question.

When I arrived at the Lab For Men's space, the preparation was so poor. Half of the needed equipment was missing. The organizers did not read the document I sent them with the list of the things that are needed. They asked me last minute. They were improvising poorly the whole time. And so this question came up again. "Where are you, men? Where are you emotionally? Where are you for each other? Where are you for this work?"

I start with this question. "Where the heck are you?" The men could not answer.

This lead me to start the Lab For Men with fear work. Get in pairs, tell the man across from you, "I feel fear to connect with you because..." Many rounds. Longer rounds. Then we did Four Feelings Check-in. We started with Feelings Kindergarten.

And when I put this question on the Flipchart, "Where are you?" this whole thing about the men feeling offended came up. Oh, my God... Feeling offended because Mom is telling them off. You know? All this shit.

I started to check how they interact with each other. I saw that the feedback and coaching they give each other is superficial.

Low level quality. Like, basically nothing. The most they would say, is, "Well, you are doing your best... Well, you did not feel so much, but, you know, you are doing your best. Keep trying..." Many men said, "I feel fear of pressure. Mom wants me to do... You need to do your chores first... Tidy up your room. Clean up first, then you can go and play..."

It came pretty fast. The fear of being together, and the fear of moving together. In that time, I did not say anything. I brought it later on. The first day was for me to collect perceptions. I started collecting, observing, not concluding or saying anything. Also acknowledging that I was the only woman there.

So they will have a certain kind of adjustment and feeling awkward. How many of them will discover this awkward moment. Many of them say there is an awkward moment between men.

And this is basically fear of not knowing what to do. So because the box tells them, you know, you can club the men. You can be like this roughness between men.

And if this is not an offer, there is nothing that they know how to move together. There is no breathing together. There is no creation together.

They do not have this information in them. They are completely separated from each other. And what about later about the pressure? Yeah, later about the pressure was basically what we did.

We did open up the pressure. We did research the pressure. And men have this.

It was mostly about the incapacity of receiving feedback. And we come back to not being able to feel. So in the moment when feedback comes back, and they do not want to receive the feedback and feel.

So they pretend to not get to the quadrant of conscious incompetence. And so pressure is when someone says, well, it is not like that. It is not like that.

But if they cannot feel, then this pressure comes instead. The gremlin comes in and uses the feedback to create the pressure. They should be different.

And this is mostly what men said about women. The woman is always unhappy. Always unsatisfied.

When couples come to me, it is mostly the woman who is not happy with something. Not satisfied with something. And the man is all right.

It is pretty much everything working well. So the force of change brings the woman. So 95% the cases.

Are you willing to ask your question of her and maybe recording mine as we come out later? Well, how did you, after the process of the night and then Jacopo started igniting this new thing with the men, where did you guys left it? Where did you leave the lab at? What is the men's next step? At the end of the lab. At the end of the night. At the end of the lab.

Because that was the third day, right? Second day. No, that was the second day. Was it four or five days? I think we did four days.

And I think it was good for me for four days. So what do you want to know? Yeah. After all of that with the weapons on the table, how did you move forward? How did you wrap it up? And then how did you wrap it up? Because it was a whole day and then probably a morning or something.

Yeah. We have such a storm. Wow.

Yeah. So what I wanted to see, what was my experiment, is if the spark that came in the night will hold by the men itself without me bringing it the next morning. If even someone will ask, what happened? Because there was, you know, so many men were not there.

So I wanted to know, are they going to ask, what did happen yesterday? Or anything? Will we say anything? Or will they share why they left? And I think this was the, yeah, I think this was the session where so little will come up. So little again will come up. Like the zombie-ism would come like a cloak again.

And I could not hold it. I went and I raged like, I don't know, seven minutes in a row. I was so angry.

I went to the side of the room. I let them speak, whatever they were speaking. I just went and raged and raged and raged.

I had, my muscles just were so painful next day. And I had even a moment where I thought I was levitating for two centimeters. I had so much rage, you know? Yeah.

I came back. I sat down. I let them do again.

And then it came back. It came back that Jacopo said, look, and Elliot, and I both were in the night there and both stood up and they started to rage. And they said, look, we need to do something here.

And I said, fuck you, we questions. Like we questions or we statements are, you know, I do not accept them here. And this moment of taking an ownership about I want to do something different.

You know, I am going now. I am starting now. It is changing here.

This started to happen. And the whole men were coming together. But this is, you know, at the end already of the day, all men will start together to go in this process of challenging each other.

But the most important thing was they will take, they were taking a stand of what they wanted. What is life about? What is to be a man about? But they could not find it. So this is something they could feel, but they could not find a new alternative or a new, you know, there is not enough feeling yet.

And when you said it was just those two men, Elliot and Jacopo, or you are talking about... No, they started, but all the men joined them then. Yeah. But they will not, they could not find it.

And, you know, some men started with, you know, Jason, with like big words and like blah, blah, blah sentences. And I said, look, leave that. Like there is none, there is nothing.

Like this is all lies. And this helped me a lot. This is what I want to say about Vera.

When I called you and I had this thing about, you know, what to do with this level of numbness. And basically you said to be like a guardian, right? To be a guardian that is saying, look, no, no, no, you do not enter, you do not enter, you do not enter. Also, this is patriarchy.

Also, this is patriarchy. This is patriarchy too. No way, no, no, no.

So this was the session where all these things, you know, all these promises say. I will say bullshit, you will not. No, you are lying.

So all of this was super intense of destroy all these fantasies that men were trying to put instead of what is a man, right? What patriarchy offers. And to let them being in nothing. Like there is, you have nothing.

This is all lies. What are you saying is just lies. And basically this is where we also ended.

We ended is all lies. There is nothing. You cannot feel yet.

You cannot even, yeah, feel the pain of it. Yeah. And this thing about feeling amongst men, this was the biggest challenge they took.

I do not rely any longer that they will feel because women feel. And that they will feel, they nourish their heart because of the beauty and the warmth of women. Like I would say, fuck you.

Like just go and feed yourself with something else. So we researched the last day about the aliveness. If you are not feeding on women aliveness, if this is not the source of your aliveness, where can your aliveness come from? Was there some beginning of possible experiments? Yeah, we did.

We did do an experiment on that. At one point and I took it from a process, which is called, I do not know exactly the name, but I think the name is what excites me or something like that. And I basically, the men were telling each other what excites them really in life.

Because in the moment when they plugged into the joy and the fear of creation, they will start to feel their aliveness. And look, I must say, I heard horrible things, what they are excited about. Like where I will just cry about what they are excited about.

Like I am excited about going at the beach and let my soul be together with the wind and just lay down there. And it is so sad. Or I feel excited about the idea to, I do not know, go sailing.

And it was so little, really so little. Radical freedom. Radical freedom.

Yeah, so selfish. It was just, I want to feel free. So something like that.

But also few men, Jacopo, Elliot, for example, Tristan came also and they were excited about what they are contributing. What for offers they can do. Jacopo was in complete ecstasy about being an ETB trainer.

But because of what he will, what will happen if the ThoughtWare upgrade happens today. Not because he will feel free or wonderful or excited or alive or whatever. But I did not put there any other distinction because what I realized is, or I have this question actually that when this basic skills of inner navigation are not developed enough for the men to navigate then all the other possibilities of distinctions, they land nowhere.

So I was, after a while I said well actually where men start is so basic and this is learning to feel, learning to feel together, learning to speak and feel at the same time. Distinguishing which eye is speaking. So this really, this inner navigation things.

And all of the other stuff is, it will just not have a grip or something like that. Yeah. It will not have a grip.

Which eye? Which eye is speaking. Did any men say what I'm excited about is to learn how to feel together? No. I did not hear that at least.

So they didn't get it? Yeah. Ah yeah, what excites you in life, yeah. Also when I led them in one of the practices I wanted to see if they have access to the seed.

You know. But I also, it does not work if you cannot feel. Between men it is an extreme, this group of men I don't know in general but it is an extreme.

I mean these are men who've been in labs, there's men who deliver, they're the best men. Yeah. And it's an extreme, big habit of speaking with we.

We should do that. We should do that. Why we should not go there? Why we don't try this? And I hate it really.

I so hate these we questions and statements. This is such a possibility to hide in the we because I don't know who starts the we, you know, no one. This was the thing about this evening with the map of the patriarchal men was that men will feel sometimes, will get angry and they will stand up and say we should stop that and they will sit again.

You know? I'm sorry, I'm not even just angry, it's just so ridiculous, yeah. Ana, would you send me that map please? You have a photograph of that map and you could send me? Yeah. Thank you.

Yeah. And so that's why I did not, I could have, I could have say make a bridge from one man who stand up. I could have asked, you know, I could have, who is we? But nah, I wasn't, it wasn't the time.

You could have wrote it on the board, you know, we. Yeah. We.

I'm just thinking of it. Yeah, yeah. Also, for example, this man stood up, I was so furious about it.

He was sitting, saying, this whole man, you know, I don't want this for my children. I don't want this for my daughter. I don't want this for my son.

He was sitting. Who stands with me? For what? He did not stand. He did not stand.

No one single man stood up. They're setting up for, they're setting themselves up for failure. Yeah.

And then I discover also a thing that is, there is a misunderstanding here. I think that the men, because the women took this big information about moving together. But it's not, you know, like, we have this information about moving together.

You mean the women together? The women move together. In the labs, they create together. They move together.

They breathe together. They have the cycle together. You know, they have a lot about being synchronized.

Yeah. And I think that this information landed in men like we can, we cannot do this alone. So I cannot start.

We need to have an agreement. We need to move together in sense of I'm not going first, because if I go first, I'm alone. And so this is a misunderstanding that I, we had, we had this exploration about.

But it was pretty much a resistance to go first. But also because they don't know how it is to be with each other. So how can they move together? Yes.

Yeah. So there was also something. Yeah.

But also the part that I'm hearing I know is that they, they think they can figure this out. Yeah. They think they can think about it and design it and have a whole strategy.

Make a plan. Yeah. This is how it goes.

Gosh. I was so angry. I was so angry.

You cannot imagine the anger in my. Yeah. Yeah, you can.

Yeah, I was. It was terrible. It was painful.

It was. I was so glad we were in this venue where I could go in. Well, you know, it was raining.

I could go in the rain and lay down on the grass and just say, you know, like Gaia helped me to recycle all of this stuff because it's huge amount of things moving. That basically men don't know how it is to be in a team. They have they have they have single.

So when men collaborate, they are not. They don't know how to collaborate. There is no information in the energetic genes of collaboration.

And also also something that very much a lot of women say is, you know, mostly mothers. Is the men leave when it's when it when it when it's when it gets difficult. Then the men leaves because so many men wants to have joy and lightness, you know, and have fun with the women, fun with the family.

And when it's turning difficult, the men just freak out and leaves. And if he doesn't leave, you know, physically, he lives in his presence. So he's not there any longer, which is which is the which is the.

The gremlin ecstasy or the gremlin implementation of nothingness is losing completely the presence. So but the men don't know they don't know that this is blank. You know, when I ask questions, it's blank.

I ask this question how was it for you growing up in patriarchy as a boy? How was it? You know, it's a boy first and then to become a man. How was it for you? And. Look, I did this.

It was a long time. Did I say how long? 30 minutes. They could feel they started to feel maybe so the last seven minutes.

They could start to feel until then. It was just a narrative about, well, this happened. This happened and this happened.

And there were a few feeling sad or feeling afraid or angry or mostly feeling sad. There's so little anger, so little anger, really. And there were a few men who could feel like Wojciech, for example, he could.

It is this thing about coming into the experience of being a boy in patriarchy is to have absent men. There are no men. All right.

Teachers are women. Mothers are at home. If someone is at home, your babysitters are women.

There is women around. Men are gone. So it is this absence.

Is this void? That they feel. And this is completely numb. This point of experience is very numb.

So they needed long time to really start to feel something. And I remember asking the women this question. How it is for you to be a woman? How is it going so far being a woman in patriarchy? And I remember with this question, women just start to like there came this huge amount of experience and feelings across.

Also, for example, the question, what was that that you truly needed and wanted? And you did not get? It is very often a void. It is this. Yeah.

We did that question in the women of effect twice. I was in there for one time because I was preparing the cafe. We did it the second time.

We went on for an hour. Yeah. I basically stopped after 30 minutes because it was not enough really feeling going on.

They could not do longer. The space was already closed. It came a wave and then it was closed.

Wow. I know. That is intense.

Yeah. It was very intense. At one point I am very interested in research.

I cannot remember how I get there but I just found my notes now. I do not know what practice we did before. But there was something about underneath of all this numbness of men it was I felt like almost touching a layer of I cannot say just the word sensitivity really.

It was such a high level of sensitivity there is under this numbness and I do not know yet I see my notes are not really clear here. But it is one thing let me see. There was men do not experience themselves they do not have an internal reference point of being a man.

Because the identity of a man comes because they are not a woman. All these women around them give them the reference point from outside. This is not you.

You are different. But there is nothing to lean on or investigate or nothing provided for the boy to source what is a man. So they have with the women also this experience or this is more than an experience.

What is it? They distinguish themselves with the women by not being one. But they do not know what they are if they are not a woman. Do you get that? Is this clear somehow? One thing I'm thinking, which I totally get this absence of.

This void. A lot of what you are saying is this void and absence. I think one place they could start this really true cutting-edge research of what is a man outside the patriarchy.

There are no answer. There is basically no answer. But the books from Robert Heinlein or Orson Scott Card or a lot of books on the list are men's story.

I think somehow they exist outside of really being patriarchs. Not completely but to some degree. So if there is a real question from one of the men, you could say that is where the research could start for you.

Basically, this is where we ended. This is where I really fought for them to not have like a poster. They wanted to have a poster or a mind map or something like that.

I have no idea how much this already dissolved. I don't know. Maybe they forgot already about everything.

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I want to thank you for this. This devastation of the lies. And I understand so much more why so many women are coming to me and telling me how scared they are because they don't want to be with men anymore.

I don't want to be with my partner. I don't want to be with my male friends. I just want to be with women.

And this is such a high level of attraction to women's spaces in the way of collaboration and of radiance and of growing that so many women are so afraid of this actually indifference. It is just I call this gravitating. For me, it's also told Tristan that I am not gravitating towards you because what you offer is so boring to me.

It is nothing that is alive for me that where I say, yeah, I want more of that. It is I have so much fun with the women. And this I think this has been also growing on the group's level so much that it will I think it is good to address.

So what I tell the women, well, what if we are going apart for a while? What if there is no bridge right now? Can you hold it? It will be okay for you. What if the men really this is the way how they will hit some wall or something and wake up? Maybe, maybe not. I don't know.

But this will be a possibility that we gravitate towards each other and we have so much fun creating and living that there is where we want to be. It can be. But I want to say there is many women very afraid about that.

You know, one possibility that maybe could happen in New Zealand is what happened in Poland, which was out of a 60 people ETB, there was 15, like a quarter women of Earth. Yeah, women. And it was about half and half men and women.

So another quarter of women who were new to this context and then men. And the women of Earth, it was so strong. The field was so strong.

And the whole space could feel it. So we had this ETB, but then we had this women of Earth culture really happening. Also calling on the other women.

And that it made such, it was so important. I don't know. It was a fabulous ETB.

Because the women of Earth said to the women, we are here. This exists. Come and join us.

So we had women meeting. We had a whole women's circle in a break. And the women were also scared of, you know, the usual, you're rejecting men, you're bad.

You know, we are bad, too. We should be perfect. Blah, blah, blah.

But there was that field and that possibility. And so really when we do these big trainings or these international trainings, or even like possibly other trainings, is to demand the women, like, let's have a quarter of the people women of Earth. And you don't have to pay.

It's not about paying for ETBs or whatever. But you're here and you take a stand for that culture. And it starts right at the ETB, like right at the start.

Yeah. And the women were turned on. The women of Earth said, "Yes."

And I also want to say there was such a different space holding. Because as a first, because my, like, my challenge was also as the only woman was to have a completely secure bubble, like 100% secure bubble where no bullshit will come through. And this was a high level of intensity that I never have had before of presence and of no way, like this arrogance also.

But also in the space holding, maybe because I was also researching, because it was like completely different space, where it was much more nothing needed from me. To also to create the space for the invisible stuff to come up. Because it was so much invisible stuff going on between men.

And so things will come up and I will name them, but I will leave them there for a while. You know, very often when things come up, I have the next impulse to go with that. And so, you know, going to the washing machine of transformation and ride the wave.

But here was more like taking it and putting in there. And then here will blop something else. And so, oh, and this.

So that things will become visible first, not just for me, but also for the men without me telling them. And this, I think, was so important that I did not tell them, you know, see, this is what is happening. I was imagining, you know, when I was going to my room and I opened the room and I was imagining many women were sleeping with me in that room.

And it was so just so beautiful. And this was my bed amongst all the other beds. Yeah.

And another thing that I want to mention is an experiment that I did the third day, I think. Yeah, the third day where the sitting space, I dissolved the women's space. And I made a very pure, I prepare everything.

They prepared the sitting space as usual with the women there and all the men here. And when they all were gone, I had the impulse to dissolve the women's space and see what happens. And I dissolved the women's space and I put just men in the middle.

And they did not recognize that. So I thought they will come and knock on my door. They will ask me, is this okay? Did you change it? They will not recognize the space as such.

And I think they will knock on my door. And then I thought Tristan will even try to enter my room. So I locked it.

And I got the knock, you know, Wojciech was holding space that day. He knocked, he wanted to check what happens. Is this okay? Everything looks differently.

And Tristan tried to enter the room too. And this is where I noticed that the sensitivity for spaces is also not, they do not recognize men's spaces. There is no, aha, this is a men's space.

Although, yeah, yay. Although it is so obvious. And so a couple of men came, they saw this, and they took everything away to the side.

And they make again a half-men, half-women space. And so it was an interesting experiment. And yeah.

And it was this morning like this, there was an empty women's space? Or did that change at the time? No, they left then an empty space on the side. Again. And no, wait, and Wojciech who was holding space, he did not want to have this empty space.

And he asked another man to sit next to him. He did that, yeah. He did not follow his impulse to let this man who was reordering the room to fuck off, to stop doing it.

He did not follow the impulse. He had the impulse though. Yeah.

Oh, because like you said, the whole like men and women space, if that is in the sitting space and all the men are there, and again, the women's space is there, but it's absent. It's what you said about a man is what women is not. Yeah.

Identifying the men's space as not women's, like as opposition. Also, I said nothing about the glasses. I wanted to experiment with the space with the glasses, and it was so obvious.

Here are all the men's glasses, and here is my glass. I did not say anything. I did not, you know, no one said anything.

I just wanted to see. And there was no one single session where my glasses were not amongst other men's glasses. So, the sensitivity about spaces is not, there is not available without the rule, right? If I would have said that, they will have followed the rule.

And so, also, that means that you were in sitting. You're making an experiment of having just the men's spaces, or were you also in the sitting space? I was in the sitting space two days. The third day that I made the experiment, and the fourth day I proposed the experiment.

Okay. But there was no man who proposed it, who said, I want to do it. Now, then, it was, yeah, we did not see it.

So, I want to do the experiment of sitting just men here. Like, men, let's do that. I want to, I hold space.

This initiative, yeah, this is the point. They have ideas sometimes, but there's no initiative in making the action. But the ideas are very often mentally.

Although, there were a few men who had also impulses. They just did not follow them. Yeah.

Without the feelings, you can't navigate impulses. Yeah. Yeah.

I don't, maybe it's a weird question, but when, you know, when I was hearing and also feeling kind of in the field, the liquid state of this preparation for the lab for men, I brought it up, I think it was Vera saying, you know, this could also happen in Europe, you know, or in America. And my sense right now, you know, after all of this is, I wouldn't propose it, you know, until the men asked for it, which I think is what happened for you also. It was a proposal from a couple and now from the team.

Yeah. Yeah. About holding a lab for men.

Yeah. Yeah. I think totally.

I think it is. And I really, I had a huge navigation when they asked me, will you hold a men's lab? And I said, no, I cannot hold a men's lab because it's a men's lab. So, no.

And then they asked me again, will you hold a lab for us men? And then I got, oh, so a lab for men is so different energetically than a men's lab. So, a lab for men, yeah, this, I will hold that. And they insist.

And so, I made it as an experiment. So, I definitely think that this is the men's initiative. And not even saying, well, you could ask for it.

Not even that. Like nothing. Like to not say nothing.

Really, this is the point that the space holding is so differently. Because to let them really hit the wall on that. That they hit the necessity.

Yeah, I mean, and something else that I was thinking of is, I think it was also, it became really possible in New Zealand because there was a seed or whatever it was of a men's culture or sort of team like was inward. But in Europe, in America, nothing. There's nothing.

You know, where's the space holder? You know, where are the team of space holder? Yeah. Nothing. And I also want to say that the women here also made an impact on the men.

So, because when the women came back from Women Of Earth, and they say, "Fuck this shit! What has been going on is over for me. No more of this." It made something in the men.

Men had so many troubles, so many problems with the women because they through the women were just making problems for them. So, this sounds like a life.

It sounds real.

I started to write. What do you need for it to be out? This is what I'm finding out with my process of unclogging. I think I just need to unclog. What I am doing now is an experiment. I have sometimes very little information that is like one page, for example. If I would speak. So, what I do is to have someone who is listening. And I speak. And I just speak, speak, speak until, okay, now it's done. And then, next thing. And it can be very different things than the article that I'm writing. Because this information just are in the way for the next piece, for the article to come.

And this is what I'm doing right now. And trying. If this works, because I come to the point of nothing.

Like this is no other information flows to me to this article. Although I have a lot of information on my big book.

So, I lost my hearing, right? 100% on the right ear. Can you remember? I have already like a big, huge, long navigation with my right ear. And I have been doing an exercise, a practice.

That I call this, how do I know that I am alive? If I do not move. And I do not have an evidence from my feelings, my thoughts of my physical body. How do I know that I'm alive? And what I discover is this, my presence.

And what I have been doing is feeling the presence through my physical body. Like using my physical body and where I am not present. And I am doing this like in the last day, always in my ear.

Like what is part of my incarnation? Where I am not incarnated, basically. This could be also a question. And I am hearing now through my right ear.

Like 25% or so. It is amazing. So, I have been researching this process of incarnating.

And how anger really helps me to incarnate into my bones. And sadness helps to incarnate into my flesh. And to my blood.

And fear helps me to incarnate into my nerves. And this whole process of letting life come a little bit more into the flesh, into the tissue. And it has been unbelievable.

And when I started, I could stay in this state one second. And then I would think. And then I would come back one second and then I would think.

And then this amazing situation happened where I could feel two seconds. I could have this two seconds and then three seconds. And it is a completely different experience of my presence.

And through this practice. So, I am very glad. So, I can understand now, so.

There's the finished being born, the thing about being incarnated, the thing that you were saying about being more present as being more incarnated using the four feelings.